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If car is lowered on Ohlins RT by their reco'd 25mm / 1 inch, will the stock front neg camber of -1.8 naturally go to -2, rears go from -2.2 -> -2.4? Also, would more neg. front camber be useful for car not on track? (i.e. canyon driven + commute only), guessing it would exacerbate inner thread wear. Thoughts?
Front suspension is a McPherson strut style. It's used on a LOT of cars for simplicity and durability, and it also leaves a ton of room for FWD drive trains. But, it typically doesn't add negative camber as it compresses, it can actually add positive camber in many cases. Rear is multi-link, so some amount of increased neg camber is expected, additional -.1 or -.2 isn't unreasonable.

More negative camber in the rear will increase rear stability mid turn compared to the front, but can result in understeer at the limit. -2.0 front camber is a good starting point if you're actually using it, even a daily can benefit from moderate camber if the driver gets after it from time to time, but its impossible to recommend a number because a sporting alignment is case-by-case. A starting point is one thing, but dialing suspension is a cyclical process, including damper tuning. Camber is meant to aid grip mid corner, we all (I hope) know that much. By itself It actually doesn't affect tire wear much, until it's combined with toe. Toe can introduce handling nuances, for instance, adding stability or aiding turn in on the front, or aiding/resisting rotation on weight shift in the rear. But toe is what accelerates tire wear because it forces the tire to grind across the asphalt at an angle- the negative camber just focuses that grinding onto the inner shoulder. Toyota may have added toe to address handling nuances for one reason or another, but it sacrifices tire wear as a lot of owners have found out. Dialing it closer to zero can help reduce tire wear and help define a neutral state to begin addressing what the driver really needs or prefers.
What do you think of the difference that DFV Ohlins damper tech makes vs. what Annex has for both street and track? Any or just marketing?
This will really require someone to have experience with both to comment on the differences in feel and effectiveness. From what I know, they're both digressive, along with Fortune and I believe MCS (not sure about other common brand offerings, but if they hide data, I don't really trust them). Digressive is the opposite of progressive, on the other side of linear. It just means the damping forces are reduced the faster the piston is forced through the oil. The faster the shaft speed, the more the damping resistance opens up. This is done with a complicated piston shape and shim stacks, is highly tunable, and is the biggest factor in how a shock performs. Digressive damping is usually desirable for a sports car because the suspension can feel firm, sporty, and responsive in the handling department, but also soak up bumps. Ohlins has managed to master this arena and made a proven reputation for themselves, partly by their own in house products, but also for the amount of customizability and fine tuning through their network of boutique tuning shops that get into really intimate levels of knowledge for specific platforms. As far as their DFV system, it's just a simple oil circuit through the center shaft that affects low speed movement. The firmer or softer feel is just a variable flow on this single oil path. But, the key is how it's tuned (port sizes, piston variants, etc) and how these oil flow systems work together to create something that's responsive and seamless. It works, and it works well. I'm not sure how Annex handles this and I have no personal experience with them, but I expect/hope they have a similar system of high speed/low speed integration that produces the magic of sporty-firm-but-still-compliant ride. If people are commenting on how good they feel in the turns, but also their ability to soak up bumps, then they have something that functions in a similar manner. Choosing between the two really boils down to a matter of personal preference. They're both fully tunable, so you're down to either Ohlins pedigree, or Annex young engineering-first efforts to build a reputation. Either option can be re-valved to change their damping curves to suit your needs.

Beyond that, it's down to personal anecdotal accounts. For instance, I had a personal experience installing Fortune 500s on a friend's Focus ST that left me wanting, a lot. Zero data and everything was loose out of the box, so we had the car on and off jacks about half a dozen times to dial ride height, preload and damper length. The instructions also required use of a flathead screwdriver and a hammer to set the lockrings. I felt dirty after that install... A friend with LOTS of track experience in more cars than I can count, both modified and stock, competes in TT and is an instructor, was pretty dissatisfied with Annex. He felt they were way too harsh and warned me to avoid them at all costs. Ohlins R&T has some history of some odd damping choices for some platforms, with damping way too stiff for the platform, or way too soft. I've received messages warning to stay away from Ohlins... So, there's no guarantees. But, with either, you can work with them after the fact to get the tuning where you want it, even after you've had them installed for a while and developed a taste for what you like and don't like about them. Honestly, that's where the magic really lives.
 
I had a set of Ohlins when I had a 2009 Mazda RX-8 and the DFV they use isn't just marketing hype: they really do feel superb on the street in their ability to absorb imperfections, yet they also kicked ass on the track as I frequently autocrossed the car.

I will say, I'm a bit curious about the square spring rates for the GRC though. Haven't seen that often (9kg front/9kg rear).
Same here on spring rates, Ohlins did the same on GR Yaris at 8 / 8 and is the only other example I can recall.
 
A friend with LOTS of track experience in more cars than I can count, both modified and stock, competes in TT and is an instructor, was pretty dissatisfied with Annex. He felt they were way too harsh and warned me to avoid them at all costs. Ohlins R&T has some history of some odd damping choices for some platforms, with damping way too stiff for the platform, or way too soft. I've received messages warning to stay away from Ohlins... So, there's no guarantees. But, with either, you can work with them after the fact to get the tuning where you want it, even after you've had them installed for a while and developed a taste for what you like and don't like about them. Honestly, that's where the magic really lives.
So I have to ask did your friend who warned you off the Annex drive a set specifically for our platlform? Or was it another platform. I too have received messages warning me off Ohlins and truthfully have experienced them on older JDM vehicles and not been exactly impressed. Again those were Ohlins designed for Japanese roads. Which do tend to be a lot smoother than our roads.
Your friends message is the first full on negative comment I have seen about the Annex beyond a person pointing out who had them that severe bumps were still harsh thing is ride is such a subjective preference based thing.
 
Front suspension is a McPherson strut style. It's used on a LOT of cars for simplicity and durability, and it also leaves a ton of room for FWD drive trains. But, it typically doesn't add negative camber as it compresses, it can actually add positive camber in many cases. Rear is multi-link, so some amount of increased neg camber is expected, additional -.1 or -.2 isn't unreasonable.

More negative camber in the rear will increase rear stability mid turn compared to the front, but can result in understeer at the limit. -2.0 front camber is a good starting point if you're actually using it, even a daily can benefit from moderate camber if the driver gets after it from time to time, but its impossible to recommend a number because a sporting alignment is case-by-case. A starting point is one thing, but dialing suspension is a cyclical process, including damper tuning. Camber is meant to aid grip mid corner, we all (I hope) know that much. By itself It actually doesn't affect tire wear much, until it's combined with toe. Toe can introduce handling nuances, for instance, adding stability or aiding turn in on the front, or aiding/resisting rotation on weight shift in the rear. But toe is what accelerates tire wear because it forces the tire to grind across the asphalt at an angle- the negative camber just focuses that grinding onto the inner shoulder. Toyota may have added toe to address handling nuances for one reason or another, but it sacrifices tire wear as a lot of owners have found out. Dialing it closer to zero can help reduce tire wear and help define a neutral state to begin addressing what the driver really needs or prefers.

This will really require someone to have experience with both to comment on the differences in feel and effectiveness. From what I know, they're both digressive, along with Fortune and I believe MCS (not sure about other common brand offerings, but if they hide data, I don't really trust them). Digressive is the opposite of progressive, on the other side of linear. It just means the damping forces are reduced the faster the piston is forced through the oil. The faster the shaft speed, the more the damping resistance opens up. This is done with a complicated piston shape and shim stacks, is highly tunable, and is the biggest factor in how a shock performs. Digressive damping is usually desirable for a sports car because the suspension can feel firm, sporty, and responsive in the handling department, but also soak up bumps. Ohlins has managed to master this arena and made a proven reputation for themselves, partly by their own in house products, but also for the amount of customizability and fine tuning through their network of boutique tuning shops that get into really intimate levels of knowledge for specific platforms. As far as their DFV system, it's just a simple oil circuit through the center shaft that affects low speed movement. The firmer or softer feel is just a variable flow on this single oil path. But, the key is how it's tuned (port sizes, piston variants, etc) and how these oil flow systems work together to create something that's responsive and seamless. It works, and it works well. I'm not sure how Annex handles this and I have no personal experience with them, but I expect/hope they have a similar system of high speed/low speed integration that produces the magic of sporty-firm-but-still-compliant ride. If people are commenting on how good they feel in the turns, but also their ability to soak up bumps, then they have something that functions in a similar manner. Choosing between the two really boils down to a matter of personal preference. They're both fully tunable, so you're down to either Ohlins pedigree, or Annex young engineering-first efforts to build a reputation. Either option can be re-valved to change their damping curves to suit your needs.

Beyond that, it's down to personal anecdotal accounts. For instance, I had a personal experience installing Fortune 500s on a friend's Focus ST that left me wanting, a lot. Zero data and everything was loose out of the box, so we had the car on and off jacks about half a dozen times to dial ride height, preload and damper length. The instructions also required use of a flathead screwdriver and a hammer to set the lockrings. I felt dirty after that install... A friend with LOTS of track experience in more cars than I can count, both modified and stock, competes in TT and is an instructor, was pretty dissatisfied with Annex. He felt they were way too harsh and warned me to avoid them at all costs. Ohlins R&T has some history of some odd damping choices for some platforms, with damping way too stiff for the platform, or way too soft. I've received messages warning to stay away from Ohlins... So, there's no guarantees. But, with either, you can work with them after the fact to get the tuning where you want it, even after you've had them installed for a while and developed a taste for what you like and don't like about them. Honestly, that's where the magic really lives.
Thanks for the explanation, great answer.
 
Care to expand on your thoughts?
Keeping in mind that the motion ratio front to rear is not the same. Front is likely right around 1:1 being a strut type. I’m not exactly sure what the rear is but it’s somewhere between 0.5 and 0.7. So that 90 rear is not effective 90. Multi-link with a spring cup in the upper wishbone.
 
Keeping in mind that the motion ratio front to rear is not the same. Front is likely right around 1:1 being a strut type. I’m not exactly sure what the rear is but it’s somewhere between 0.5 and 0.7. So that 90 rear is not effective 90. Multi-link with a spring cup in the upper wishbone.
True, but with a 59/41 weight distribution the rear supports a lot less weight. I'm curious to see some reviews...
 
So I have to ask did your friend who warned you off the Annex drive a set specifically for our platlform? Or was it another platform. I too have received messages warning me off Ohlins and truthfully have experienced them on older JDM vehicles and not been exactly impressed. Again those were Ohlins designed for Japanese roads. Which do tend to be a lot smoother than our roads.
Your friends message is the first full on negative comment I have seen about the Annex beyond a person pointing out who had them that severe bumps were still harsh thing is ride is such a subjective preference based thing.
It was for an 86. He was super happy with the Bilstein B16 (PSS10), though, and ended up getting them again when he replaced his Gen1 BRZ with a Gen2 BRZ. We both were really happy with the Bilsteins, but unfortunately they're not making anything for the GRC. Big enough impacts still felt like the shocks were going to blow through the hood, but that's just because the 86 didn't have much bump travel so a harsh event would make them smack the bump stops pretty hard. At some point early on in the 86's life cycle (like 10 years ago) Ohlins changed their recipe for the R&Ts for the 86, and went from 60N/60N square to like 40N/30N, way softer. Everyone was confused, and it wasn't documented well. Those rates were basically OE, and it would have made the rear end reeeeally soft with a 0.7 motion ratio.

You're right, ride quality is a very subjective thing. Spring rates are only a small part of the picture, damper tuning is a black art. A lot of Japanese coilovers do seem to favor pretty high spring rates and high compression damping compared to what we need in the US (or those in the UK) with our shit roads.
 
So I have to ask did your friend who warned you off the Annex drive a set specifically for our platlform? Or was it another platform. I too have received messages warning me off Ohlins and truthfully have experienced them on older JDM vehicles and not been exactly impressed. Again those were Ohlins designed for Japanese roads. Which do tend to be a lot smoother than our roads.
Your friends message is the first full on negative comment I have seen about the Annex beyond a person pointing out who had them that severe bumps were still harsh thing is ride is such a subjective preference based thing.
FWIW I've driven several thousand KM in Japan in both a GR Yaris and a kouki first gen 86 (both stock) and there are definitely crappy roads around there ;).

As an example last year I was driving in Shizuoka back to the expressway behind a friend of mine in the GRY, and as we turned on one street I heard and felt the loudest bang. Thought I hit someone or something. But nah, and we didn't find any damage later. It was just a street filled with potholes and bumps and I happened to miss one 🤣🤦🏻‍♂️
 
FWIW I've driven several thousand KM in Japan in both a GR Yaris and a kouki first gen 86 (both stock) and there are definitely crappy roads around there ;).

As an example last year I was driving in Shizuoka back to the expressway behind a friend of mine in the GRY, and as we turned on one street I heard and felt the loudest bang. Thought I hit someone or something. But nah, and we didn't find any damage later. It was just a street filled with potholes and bumps and I happened to miss one 🤣🤦🏻‍♂️
I stand corrected . Though ya back in the day aka 180sx extc… they tended to spring shocks very stiff ( like Wheelhaus mentioned) and those coilovers rode like crap..
 
Core/Circuit has 50 N/mm front and 60 N/mm rear, while Morizo has 55 N/mm front and 80 N/mm rear. I have not driven the Morizo, but Core suffers from understeer. I had the same problem when I looked for coilovers for my MKI Focus, and all the off-the-shelf ones had the same issue, so I ended up putting together custom coilovers myself.
 
True, but with a 59/41 weight distribution the rear supports a lot less weight. I'm curious to see some reviews...
Yes absolutely. My comment was only made in agreement with you. I used to design suspensions for race cars, so I understand better than most how deterministic and then iterative the process is.

People like to explain the GR Corolla's firm ride as poor suspension quality or cheap dampers or something. Which is very much not what's going on here. We are seeing intentional tuning choices made by Toyota for the car. The non-Morizo variants have very nice low-speed damping (by this I mean piston velocity, not vehicle velocity). However, their high-speed damping is aggressive, and I think incorrectly judged. If you drive the car over some undulations in the road, they are handled beautifully, you watch the SUVs around you wallow but the GRC eats it up. Then you drive over expansion joints or potholes and you get this jarring feeling, which is the spring not being allowed to work because the high-speed damping is too firm. Also in this equation is the stock Michelin tire carcass being pretty firm and the sidewalls being pretty small.

Toyota decided to do this for some reason, it was a choice not an accident. Jack from SavageGeese actually asked the chief engineer on GR Corolla about these damper valving choices in their video on the automatic GRC. The answer from Naoyuki Sakamoto was:

We try to make it a more track focused vehicle, especially for the beginner. So the basic tuning is focusing on the smooth surface track. So, of course, I understand what you are saying. So we have to find some kind of compromise. This is kind of a production vehicle, so concerning reliability and affordability maybe not so much. But anyway, so still, yea, anyway not super expensive sports car.
Answer feels a little wishy-washy, but perhaps there is some language barrier there. On the face of it they seem to have tuned this vehicle with HPDE ambitions. I think there is also something here about expectation and marketing. People expect a car with sporty aspirations ride a certain way. People complained quite a bit about the GR Corolla having "too much body roll" in the beginning, which is of course total nonsense.

I believe that you should be able to have your cake and eat it too when it comes to suspension. You should be able to have a car that rides great over any surface, but also controls the body, and handles very well. I have been in cars set up this way, and I have set up cars this way, I know it is possible. The GR Corolla does not achieve it, and that might actually be because you have to spend a lot on suspension to get the best of all worlds. I designed race car suspension, not production car suspension, so I was never cost sensitive about damper choice. We'd put them on a shock dyno, run the car, take them apart and re-valve them. For finer tuning we'd use damper adjusters.

So maybe I am full of it and the issue actually was cheap dampers the whole time. LOL. I have had good experiences with Ohlins in the past, I bet if you make the right choices with the adjuster these could be somewhat transformative for the GR Corolla.
 
I agree, the GRC's body control on smooth surfaces is respectable and ride quality is actually pretty good. Some body roll is to be expected, it's part of a car's charm and a very easy-to-read means of communicating weight transfer. It definitely struggles with high speed damping events. I've seen (and experienced) this complaint with a lot of Japanese cars, that the high speed damping is commonly too firm. Maybe it's a result of mass-produced shock systems that rely more on fluid flow/port sizes to create a desired effect at low speed but is too restrictive for high speed. I don't know, speculation is a bottomless pit. I'm really looking forward to finding out what Ohlins are like. There's a bit of romanticism that i'm trying to keep at bay, but maintaining objectivity is a bitch when you're excited for something.
 
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