About to start watching it. Can't wait for this thread.

Why did they update the brakes? They wasted so much money. (Edit: I now see the laptime is not .1 faster but 1.1 seconds faster.)

 

About to start watching it. Can't wait for this thread.

Why did they update the brakes? They wasted so much money.

Honestly the essex if your tracking heavily made a huge difference. Graham ended up doing the same thing to his personal car.

 

Our OE Brembo brakes are good, but AP Racing is on another level. I’ll watch later when I get home.

 

I believe our OE brakes are Advics, but I agree, solid for most use.

Also I noticed that the MCS with 8k front and 10k rear rates were listed as a track setup, but I think they’re on Limit+1 as street.

This is actually what I’m running right now, and think you could probably go higher for track

 

Jack, now that we have more information from 555 engineering and their findings about how the transfer case overheating is the main reason for awd limp mode are you planning to do a follow up with them?

 

Im meeting the chief engineer of the grc next week. Im just gonna ask him tbh. Graham has been tuning this car more than anyone and he thinks it is software. I have to agree as ambient temp has had zero affect on the speed the awd system turns off. My assumption is it is purely load based/ assumed value. Which is not uncommon in this class of car.

 

im excited to see how the R&T Ohlins option compares to those Annex coilovers.....

 

Annex FastRoads seem like a tremendous value tbh… huge fan of the compression adjustment location on the rear shocks, they come with camber plates up front, and NVH seems well controlled.

Ohlins typically don’t come with front suspension mounts so you’re talking about an option with less height adjustment that will probably be over $1000 more with front camber plates.

 

@SavageGooseJack have you installed/considered installing items like an upgraded transmission pitch mount and shift cable end bushings? Easily my favourite bang-for-buck mod so far

On another note, it's cool to see you here engaging with us other GRC nerds

 

we have not. The shifting hasnt really been a issue for us. Though i do believe the manual leaves some room for improvement

 

Hey Jack, thanks for the video.

One thing I didn't see addressed was the clutch. What clutch are you running, and did Limit 1 have anything to say about the stock clutch? Like is it really weak? How much power can it handle? Things like that. Just curious, as it's a constant source of discussion here on the forums (as it is on every other forum I follow with a manual option, lol).

 

The clutch seems fairly case by case. Those with little mechanical sympathy seem to have few issues with stock power. Ill have ben talk about it in the next video.

 

The dude from annex not even dyno'n the oem dampener is amateur as heck. come on son

 

@SavageGooseJack Great video focused on addressing a given platform and mods in general. Thanks for staying the course and finding where this path leads. Cars are a funny thing, we like what we like whether it makes sense or not, but fixing what's "wrong" with virtually any car from a performance standpoint is a journey that's interesting to anyone who's ever modified a car. Everything has it's quirks, and the GRC is no exception. This video digs into the fun stuff and the technical validation means it's reliable information.

I'm really interested in your discussion with the engineers regarding the software and I'm cautiously optimistic that a tuning solution is on the horizon at some point to address what's really going on between the ECU's predictive model and real temps. I expect a mild tuning option might address the temp threshold as-is, or require a heavier duty fluid, but an unlimited fix might require a 3rd party cooling solution like 555's transfer case cooler.

I love the development so far on this platform; it's slow but promising. I guess that's par for the course as modern cars get more complex with computer controls and telemetry. Tuners are drilling down and finding the root causes for roadblocks (valve springs/retainers, and software heat prediction) instead of relying on conventional assumptions; Limit+1 and Verus clearly found that route to be a dead end. Overall reliability claims for realistic power levels are encouraging. Honestly, a little rally-derived AWD hot hatch with 300-350whp and a dead reliable drivetrain is all I need to die happy.

The MCS and AP setup you have is making me quite envious.

 

Honestly, a little rally-derived AWD hot hatch with 300-350whp and a dead reliable drivetrain is all I need to die happy.

exactly my thoughts

 

Damn, 60k in mods? That's some serious dedication.

 

Making Donut Media's hi/low budget envious with that.

 

@SavageGooseJack

Great video! I really like how honest you and your guests are about what us "99% daily driver" guys may want vs just trying to sell us parts. I never sensed any marketing efforts by anybody in the video.

Also, for the depth of knowledge on each topic as all of your guests have, none spoke over our heads or had difficulty relaying good information.

Thanks for the effort. I really enjoyed watching.

 

Moral to this story: This car is way overstressed and costs a lot to get more out of, and the expense of making a mistake is enormous. Seems like pimp it to suit, and drive it on the street and choose a better platform for the track. I've got a 24' and will probably get a 26' then move onto something more track worthy. PS concur with the vid that its a loud car with choppy ride. I don't mind, but was still a surprise.

 

Thank you Jack for doing a great very in depth video with lots of good info. I did ike the detail the Grant at Annex is going into and doing with their setup. As for someone laughing at the fact that Annex did not shock dyno the factory damper.
A: They already knew from driving and spring rates stock some of the choices Toyota had made for the dampers and that the factory dampers were not ideal
They shot for the target of what would give the car a still nice ride while delivering much better suspension control , through better dampening and springs rates by targeting the desired ride frequency . Combined with all the testing it definitely puts Annex in contention with a lot more expensive setups.
I also appreciated having Graham at Boosted go into detail just what the limits are on tuning for the car and only wonder if an ECUTEK tune is reversible . Not being able to revert to stock tune is a no go in my book.

 

Thank you Jack for doing a great very in depth video with lots of good info. I did ike the detail the Grant at Annex is going into and doing with their setup. As for someone laughing at the fact that Annex did not shock dyno the factory damper.
A: They already knew from driving and spring rates stock some of the choices Toyota had made for the dampers and that the factory dampers were not ideal
They shot for the target of what would give the car a still nice ride while delivering much better suspension control , through better dampening and springs rates by targeting the desired ride frequency . Combined with all the testing it definitely puts Annex in contention with a lot more expensive setups.
I also appreciated having Graham at Boosted go into detail just what the limits are on tuning for the car and only wonder if an ECUTEK tune is reversible . Not being able to revert to stock tune is a no go in my book.

I’m tuned by Graham and I can put back on the stock tune whenever I want or need to.

 

Question: if these 3rd party, relatively small firms can engineer suspension setups that are both more comfortable on the street and handle better on track, what's wrong at Toyota that with their enormous resources they are producing such a second-rate OEM setup?? Just penny pinching?

 

Penny pinching or deciding what part of the build deserves more budget. Didn't the guys on the video say that current prices for the G16E are ~$16k? Probably doesn't leave a ton of wriggle room to finesse all the bits.

Also, I'm not sure if any of these guys have tried the GR upgraded springs you can order and install? From what I've read so far, they seem to fix much of the body roll issue while adding a little (3/4 or so inch?) drop. Obviously those aren't adjustable but if they do partially solve the stated problem, my guess is Toyota prioritized the suspension system that it believes most owners will be happy with.

Additionally to that line of thought, the FRS/86/BRZ was similarly set up with not the best suspension from factory. It was always pretty well-known that Toyota/Subaru figured it'd be bought as a tuner car where owners would do things to improve things they feel are needed beyond factory.

 

Personally I'd happily fork over an extra grand or two to Toyota for a fully optimized suspension that was comfortable on the street but also relatively balanced when pushed hard, adaptive dampers or no. The ride issue has me eyeing alternatives, especially since right now test drives of the GR are vapourware.

 

There will likely always be specialized suspensions you can buy from Toyota. Granted I don't know about for the GR Corolla in this case but the GT86/86 has had purpose built track and even rally spec suspensions available from Toyota for years. Same with big brake systems, even before the performance pack for the 86/brz they sold larger brembos.

The rally suspension for instance: TRD Rally Suspension Installed! - Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB

 

Jack - I really enjoyed this video; I really enjoy the in depth stuff!

I wonder how much closer the Morizo Edition would have been handling-wise to the Annex car? I believe that the springs/shocks/bars are designed to be specifically stiffer/better on track for the ME compared to the CE (and I believe that the ride height is lower too)

keep up the good work!

 

Usually a manufacture divorces the spring from the strut setup when they feel the upper mount area of the rear shock does not have enough body rigidity to with stand both on the same point axis. BMW E36‘s had divorced setups and people were still able to rip upper strut mounts out of the unibody in high performance applications i.e. spirited driving and track days. It is a normal modification procedure to reinforce that area on E36’s. If you are doing performance mods.
Even with the divorced setup!

Same thing in Fiesta ST’s . Originally Ford had a full coilover setup for the MK6 and MK7 chassis that you were not supposed to install unless you reinforces the rear strut towers and caged the car . Otherwise you could rip them apart. Yes from the factory the rear springs were divorced from the strut.

There is a reason Toyota did this on our cars and I honestly would not recommend anyone put a non divorced coilover in the rear regardless of how great it is as far as who makes it or how cool you think it is. …. edited to add this , unless one puts a cage in the car and reinforces the rear strut top mount area.

 

Usually a manufacture divorces the spring from the strut setup when they feel the upper mount area of the rear shock does not have enough body rigidity to with stand both on the same point axis. BMW E36‘s had divorced setups and people were still able to rip upper strut mounts out of the unibody in high performance applications i.e. spirited driving and track days. It is a normal modification procedure to reinforce that area on E36’s. If you are doing performance mods.
Even with the divorced setup!

Same thing in Fiesta ST’s . Originally Ford had a full coilover setup for the MK6 and MK7 chassis that you were not supposed to install unless you reinforces the rear strut towers and caged the car . Otherwise you could rip them apart. Yes from the factory the rear springs were divorced from the strut.

There is a reason Toyota did this on our cars and I honestly would not recommend anyone put a non divorced coilover in the rear regardless of how great it is as far as who makes it or how cool you think it is.

Probably would have gone divorced if it had been an option when I got mine. I really didn’t think about it, but my experience with MCS is they make a phenomenal product and saw most of the higher end options run true rear coilovers.

10k+ miles into them they’ve been absolutely transformative, and easily my favorite modification.

Looking at the size of the front suspension, I feel like they went with a divorced setup stock for packaging purposes, because the stock suspension is massive. There was something like an 8lb+ weight savings for each of the front coilovers with the MCS, and I feel like the stock front suspension had probably close to a 6 inch diameter. Something like that in the rear would absolutely eat into cargo space.

The strut tower reinforcement they use in the bmws to run true rear coilovers is pretty minimal, the rear mount on the MCS seems way more solid than stock.

Another thing to point out is there is no aftermarket rear suspension control arm to get rid of the spring bucket in the rear.

Obviously an unnecessary risk to take on when modding your car, would have preferred something more in line with stock, but I will report back after the next track season if I have any issues. I will probably be close to 25k miles into them at that time.

 

Thanks for your ongoing series of videos on the GRC! So well done and informative! Question: Which brake fluid are you using and which brake pad? I have used Motul RBF 600 (not the 660) on street cars that have seen occasional HPDE/autocross use. Are you running stainless steel brake lines or just sticking with the OEM lines?

 

They're using Counter Space Garage's own brake pads; their product list can be found here. Not sure exactly which pads, but this is what CSG offers.

https://www.counterspacegarage.com/products/brakes/brake-pads/csg-spec-brake-pads

edit- looks like I inadvertently answered the question, seems like the CP compound is the only one currently offered for the GRC.

 

I have been having the “Subaru smell” in my GRC since my track day in the beginning of October. Has anyone else experienced this?
I’ve been searching around and can’t find any info on it. He mentions no one can find where it’s coming from and neither can I but I was just wondering if anyone else is experiencing this and if so when. To me it smells like a mix of gear oil and faintly like propane but that could just be my nose.
I have 13k miles on mine so far and I thought it was maybe a loose exhaust clamp at first after installing my OTL down pipe but they are all tight.

 

I have been having the “Subaru smell” in my GRC since my track day in the beginning of October. Has anyone else experienced this?
I’ve been searching around and can’t find any info on it. He mentions no one can find where it’s coming from and neither can I but I was just wondering if anyone else is experiencing this and if so when. To me it smells like a mix of fear oil and faintly like propane but that could just be my nose.
I have 13k miles on mine so far and I thought it was maybe a loose exhaust clamp at first after installing my OTL down pipe but they are all tight.

I got rid of mine by cleaning the engine bay. In the end im sure it was some spilled oil at some point.

 

660

 

Thank you!

 

GRC v. CTR: I recently watched SG's GRC High/Low Builds video (above), and the Civic Type R 1 Year Update video from several months ago. These cars are compared several times during both videos, with the consensus among the Savagegentlemen being that they would prefer to own the CTR, excepting the advantage to GRC or WRX for bad weather. Having owned both a CTR (FK8) and a GRC, I have firsthand experience with both cars. I also come at these cars from the opposite direction as SG. I live the exception they briefly acknowledge and thus have a very different impression. My use case is fun on the road (no track), snow half the year, kids' school drops and ski practice. (BTW, my GR is a core with performance pack, my CTR was a pre face lift FK8). And from that side of things, I think the GRC is the choice.

I very much agree with SG that the CTR feels like a more complete product. I won't repeat their impressions in detail here, but I'll just say I largely agree, and think that the CTR is a brilliant driver with some endearing quirks, a great interior, and the best seats and shifter I've experienced. If pressed, I would say that the CTR is, objectively speaking, a better conceived and executed car.

But I am so much happier in my GRC. Despite several very real shortcomings, it dominates in the snow and produces huge amounts of good old fashioned fun.

While the CTR is fun too in the right conditions, it definitely has a more serious, no nonsense edge to it. And I can say with confidence the CTR is maddening to drive in the winter. I know cuz I did it for two seasons (on proper studless snows, btw). Loose surfaces sap the fun out of the CTR as the front end searches for traction in every corner exit, and it generally feels like walking in stilettoes on ice (or so I'm told, not that I have any experience with that). The GR, however, comes to life on snow or any loose surface. A total hack like me can throw it into a four wheel drift that feels totally controllable like I'm Montana's somewhat less bald Stig Blomqvuist. Reality likely differs from perception, but this is the way it FEELS in the GR, and that's kinda the whole point here, right? It has a fundamental issue on track with its drivetrain, suspension that suddenly crosses the threshold from compliant to spinal compression with no warning or progression, seats made of used brillo pads, and a monkishly austere interior. But from the perspective of a driver looking for a road going, four season, fun car the GRC nails it, and I much prefer it. I also need to call out the three cylinder. It's buzzy, feels it it's going to pop when you push it, and nowhere near as composed as the turbo 2L 4 cylinder in the CTR and just about every other car. But it's so much more interesting.

It's understandable that for someone who bought this for track use it's an unforgiveable gaffe by Toyota that it can't make it more than 10 minutes without losing awd. And that's where I think Toyota whiffed on the marketing of this car. They created the expectation that this thing is a track weapon. But why not make promises kept by it's best qualities: a quirky fun car born of the rally spirit? A loose surface demon that will do school runs too. In youtube terms, more Hoonigan than Type 7. Kinda like a WRX.

Would we judge it from a more sympathetic lens if the expectation had been more appropriately set?

 

GRC v. CTR: I recently watched SG's GRC High/Low Builds video (above), and the Civic Type R 1 Year Update video from several months ago. These cars are compared several times during both videos, with the consensus among the Savagegentlemen being that they would prefer to own the CTR, excepting the advantage to GRC or WRX for bad weather. Having owned both a CTR (FK8) and a GRC, I have firsthand experience with both cars. I also come at these cars from the opposite direction as SG. I live the exception they briefly acknowledge and thus have a very different impression. My use case is fun on the road (no track), snow half the year, kids' school drops and ski practice. (BTW, my GR is a core with performance pack, my CTR was a pre face lift FK8). And from that side of things, I think the GRC is the choice.

I very much agree with SG that the CTR feels like a more complete product. I won't repeat their impressions in detail here, but I'll just say I largely agree, and think that the CTR is a brilliant driver with some endearing quirks, a great interior, and the best seats and shifter I've experienced. If pressed, I would say that the CTR is, objectively speaking, a better conceived and executed car.

But I am so much happier in my GRC. Despite several very real shortcomings, it dominates in the snow and produces huge amounts of good old fashioned fun.

While the CTR is fun too in the right conditions, it definitely has a more serious, no nonsense edge to it. And I can say with confidence the CTR is maddening to drive in the winter. I know cuz I did it for two seasons (on proper studless snows, btw). Loose surfaces sap the fun out of the CTR as the front end searches for traction in every corner exit, and it generally feels like walking in stilettoes on ice (or so I'm told, not that I have any experience with that). The GR, however, comes to life on snow or any loose surface. A total hack like me can throw it into a four wheel drift that feels totally controllable like I'm Montana's somewhat less bald Stig Blomqvuist. Reality likely differs from perception, but this is the way it FEELS in the GR, and that's kinda the whole point here, right? It has a fundamental issue on track with its drivetrain, suspension that suddenly crosses the threshold from compliant to spinal compression with no warning or progression, seats made of used brillo pads, and a monkishly austere interior. But from the perspective of a driver looking for a road going, four season, fun car the GRC nails it, and I much prefer it. I also need to call out the three cylinder. It's buzzy, feels it it's going to pop when you push it, and nowhere near as composed as the turbo 2L 4 cylinder in the CTR and just about every other car. But it's so much more interesting.

It's understandable that for someone who bought this for track use it's an unforgiveable gaffe by Toyota that it can't make it more than 10 minutes without losing awd. And that's where I think Toyota whiffed on the marketing of this car. They created the expectation that this thing is a track weapon. But why not make promises kept by it's best qualities: a quirky fun car born of the rally spirit? A loose surface demon that will do school runs too. In youtube terms, more Hoonigan than Type 7. Kinda like a WRX.

Would we judge it from a more sympathetic lens if the expectation had been more appropriately set?

To put it bluntly I think the last sentence is what most of us have concluded. Great car Toyota NA blew it the marketing.

I would beg to differ though on the harsh assesment of the interior and seats. You are spoiled by the fact that Honda did an absolutely stellar job on their interior and of course you got charged for it as well. Of course I have a Premium and the leatherette seems to make the seat a bit nicer than the base Core cloth seat. Yet while not being as good as the Recaros i.e. it does not hold me as well it’s quite comfortable for long drives.

I will give the perspective of coming from another highly revered Hot hatch though .

The Fiesta ST and yes I had the Recaros and they were incredible compared to the Premium seats in my GRC. They also were a 2k option.The rest of the interior was seriously dated and hard ass cheap plastic though. The car was an insane bargain at Just under/over 20k depending on the deals . Though it drove like a Go Kart and was quite fun . Outside of running it stock the minute you tuned it or went for a decent amount of more power it did TQ steer. It could slay in the corners though . Put a LSD in and it pulled you through like nobodies business.
Yet it was FWD . You could not get around that just like even though the CTR does not really TQ steer it fundamentally is like the FiST the lesser because it is FWD.


In that sense I came from RWD prior to the FiST I have owned FWD cars before but never looked at them as anything more than daily get around even though I did own a Nissan Primera aka Infiniti G20 which was a BTCC champion . Coming from the FiST there was no way I would have bought a bigger longer FWD car that the CTR is . Plain and simple RWD, AWD or keep the FiST.

While FWD cars can be sports cars and fun in my eyes they are fundamentally flawed. Some people say RWD cars are fundamentally flawed ( AWD fanatics usually) .


P.S. I do think the FiST is one the best FWD hot hatches ever built though. It delivers smiles and laughs like nothing else . The GRC is next level though.

Mark is a essentially IMO opinion a FWD fanatic . He is an admitted Honda fan That pretty much puts him in that camp and leads to biases .
Jack is less of that he loves RWD. In the course of mods I think he has come to appreciate the GRC more. Judged by some of his latest Youtube vids .
In the end one could say the perspectives are perhaps subjective to biases that’s life.

The car is great for what it is people just need to stop on all these damn comparos that are pretty much based off built in biases. Not saying you have one just pointing it out.
…… stops looks in mirror 😂

 

Very well said.
I've not driven the CTR but have a pretty good idea of what to expect. It's commendable what Honda is doing, making a proper FWD sports car, despite the obvious challenges it's a respectable machine by all accounts. I wish we had other proper FWD sports cars to occupy the space (Renault? Hello?) But something about the GRC "quirks and features" add up to a package that's somehow greater than the sum of its parts.

 

Suzuki Swift Sport. It's actually probably the most popular modern hot hatch in Japan right now. Being used for a lot of time attack and stuff. It's just pretty low-powered from factory.

 

 

Its a dry wit edgy review channel that does great work.
The GRC isn’t an out of the box track car. Its a super fun daily though and can become a track weapon. I liked all their commentary. Mark is a bit of drama, but he wears tuxmats and clearly just needs help. Jack is doing the best he can and is a good man to help him out so much! Lol

 

Its a dry wit edgy review channel that does great work.
The GRC isn’t an out of the box track car. Its a super fun daily though and can become a track weapon. I liked all their commentary. Mark is a bit of drama, but he wears tuxmats and clearly just needs help. Jack is doing the best he can and is a good man to help him out so much! Lol

The CTR couldn’t catch a GRC in limp mode? Brutal.

The car drives like ass in limp mode.

 

So based on the video a fix for the transfer case/limp mode issue is to install two components:

1. Syvecs - AWD Controller
2. 555 Engineering - Transfer Case Cooler

Anyone happen to have a link for these products? Otherwise, Google it is!

 

555 Engineering

GR Corolla AWD ITCC Cooler Motorsports Development

www.555engineer.com

 

I was surprised to hear that the AWD controller is a standalone unit that doesn't talk to the ECU. I'm kinda floored by that... It makes sense in a way, but it means that the Syvecs unit and the cooler really IS a 100% solution, not a 99% band-aid.