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I think the CTR is going to be hard to beat on track, the CTR is a street / track biased machine while press releases indicates that the GRC is tuned for both off-road and street/track use. Off-road tuning is almost counter to track tuning from a suspension standpoint. Off-road tuning generally requires relatively softer suspension tuning with longer stroke and softer sway bars, while track suspension tuning generally requires relatively stiffer tuning and stiffer sway bars and generally doesn't require as long of a stroke.

As a consequence of the softer off-road tuning and longer stroke for off-road performance, high speed side to side transition time is negatively impacted meaning that on shorter tracks with more tight turns, the GRC will be slower to transition than the CTR, which may impact its overall ability to "go quickly" through a series of back to back tight turns.

On tracks that are higher speed with longer sweepers it may not make as much of a difference, but I think the CTR will be able to best the GRC in most track environments, not to mention that CTR is lighter and also has more power (even if the CTR had the same HP and torque at the flywheel, mechanical losses from AWD vs FWD are significant), that coupled with the more track oriented suspension setup means the CTR will most likely best the GRC in short, tight tracks, as well as longer higher speed tracks...

The only places that the GRC might be a "faster" car is off-road, or on rough surface streets. But the CTR also has electronically adjustable suspension which reviewers all say is amazingly compliant on the street as well if its most comfortable setting....

I think that outright on-track performance for the GRC isn't its focus, as the GRY and GRC are more of rally-inspired machines.

But I'm fine all of this and have already put down deposits for the GRC. I think (hope) the GRC will be a blast to drive all around in many different surfaces and with that 30/70 F/R torque split will be able to do (fun) things that the CTR can't!

I completely agree with your assessment. Although they’re competitors in hatchbacks similarly priced, they’re different purposefully machines.

One important note is the overall built quality. The Type R has quality control issues. There’re complaints by owners with rattles and seal leaks with the Type R. Owners are paying a premium price on a mediocre build. I believe the type R were built in the UK. There’re rumors Honda might build the new Type R in Japan. We’ll see where Honda ends up building the Type R. The Corolla GR is been built in one of the highest quality facilities in the world. It’s like a sword built by Hatorri Hanzo. Essentially a Lexus with a Toyota badge (minus interior materials). For this reason the GR is a better purchase imho.
 

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I completely agree with your assessment. Although they’re competitors in hatchbacks similarly priced, they’re different purposefully machines.

One important note is the overall built quality. The Type R has quality control issues. There’re complaints by owners with rattles and seal leaks with the Type R. Owners are paying a premium price on a mediocre build. I believe the type R were built in the UK. There’re rumors Honda might build the new Type R in Japan. We’ll see where Honda ends up building the Type R. The Corolla GR is been built in one of the highest quality facilities in the world. It’s like a sword built by Hatorri Hanzo. Essentially a Lexus with a Toyota badge (minus interior materials). For this reason the GR is a better purchase imho.
I thought I read it was a done deal that the new Type R was going to be made in North America somewhere.

That would be cool if they are indeed made in Japan though. I was somewhat turned off by them being made in the UK for some reason with the previous gen.
 

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Two things:

1). I definitely agree that the GRC/GRY are more all around vehicles than the CTR. The CTR has always been an uncompromising beast of a machine built for one thing only-the track. In that specific application, I honestly think it will be better than the GRC in most instances, other than on specific tracks where the AWD system will give the GRC a leg up. This advantage will evaporate in lousy weather or in other settings, but I expect the CTR will be the better pure track car than the GRC.

But I imagine the GRC will be more comfortable, versatile, and easier to live with as a daily. It just depends on what you’re looking for.

2). I’m not so sure the CTR and GRC are necessarily going to eat into each other’s sales all that much. People are weirdly loyal to specific manufacturers, and in my experience Honda people are purely Honda people. The enthusiasts I know that are into Honda are pretty much exclusively into Honda and not a lot else, and it seems as though they do a good job of attracting repeat customers as a brand in general.

I’m new to the Toyota world myself, so I can’t speak from experience, but I’m not sure if they have the same cult-like following Honda does…mainly because they’d been out of the sporty car game for a while before their recent sea change, and Honda has always had hot versions of the Civic that people swear by.

I think the type of people that want a CTR are looking for a CTR specifically. I think the folks that are drawn to the GRC are people that want something new and different/unique. If anything I think the GRC is going to eat into the sales of the GTI/R and the Hyundai N products. I believe the CTR’s mystique is pretty full proof regardless of how good the competition gets.
I really doubt that the next CTR is going to be much more than a new skin, just like the Si. New body, carryover drivetrain (spare me the minor details the new SI has over the previous, they're tiny in the grand scheme). I like that both cars will exist, because now people with functional eyeballs and a dislike for fake air ducts/grilles will have another option ;). I have over 25 years of Honda ownership under my belt but they lost me a while ago. FWD only and lack of style have chased me away. By all accounts the current CTR is an amazing machine but if I'm spending that much money on a vehicle economy car dictated FWD isn't my thing. The new CTR will no doubt be an improvement over the last, but I've seen some new Civic hatchbacks driving around and they're not attractive by any means.

I thought I read it was a done deal that the new Type R was going to be made in North America somewhere.

That would be cool if they are indeed made in Japan though. I was somewhat turned off by them being made in the UK for some reason with the previous gen.
The 10th gen hatchback was built in the UK. So I believe that is why the CTR was built there. The 11th gen hatchback is built in the US. Thus it would stand to reason that the new CTR will also be built in the US. I would be very surprised if the CTR is built in Japan.
 

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yeah, Nissan has gotten their shit together, so why hasn't mitsu
Nissan hasn't gotten their shit together lol, their new vehicles are still just shiny reskins of outdated components, and Mitsubishi Motors has become the underling of the Renault-Nissan alliance, so don't expect much from them, based on the reports that Mitsubishi has released so far it seems like almost all upcoming Mitsubishis will just be rebadge Renaults and Nissans, so do expect their reliability to fall off a cliff. Remember when it was other car manufacturers like for example Chrysler that rebadge certain Mitsubishi models or having Mitsubishi to be their engine supplier like Hyundai? Things sure have changed.

Rant over, now back to the CTR.
 

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Nissan hasn't gotten their shit together lol, their new vehicles are still just shiny reskins of outdated components, and Mitsubishi Motors has become the underling of the Renault-Nissan alliance, so don't expect much from them, based on the reports that Mitsubishi has released so far it seems like almost all upcoming Mitsubishis will just be rebadge Renaults and Nissans, so do expect their reliability to fall off a cliff. Remember when it was other car manufacturers like for example Chrysler that rebadge certain Mitsubishi models or having Mitsubishi to be their engine supplier like Hyundai? Things sure have changed.

Rant over, now back to the CTR.
well, its a step, new z and arya seem to be good, and both are new cars. as for mistu, yeah, thats true.

but like you said, back to the CTR
 

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I think the CTR is going to be hard to beat on track, the CTR is a street / track biased machine while press releases indicates that the GRC is tuned for both off-road and street/track use. Off-road tuning is almost counter to track tuning from a suspension standpoint. Off-road tuning generally requires relatively softer suspension tuning with longer stroke and softer sway bars, while track suspension tuning generally requires relatively stiffer tuning and stiffer sway bars and generally doesn't require as long of a stroke.

As a consequence of the softer off-road tuning and longer stroke for off-road performance, high speed side to side transition time is negatively impacted meaning that on shorter tracks with more tight turns, the GRC will be slower to transition than the CTR, which may impact its overall ability to "go quickly" through a series of back to back tight turns.

On tracks that are higher speed with longer sweepers it may not make as much of a difference, but I think the CTR will be able to best the GRC in most track environments, not to mention that CTR is lighter and also has more power (even if the CTR had the same HP and torque at the flywheel, mechanical losses from AWD vs FWD are significant), that coupled with the more track oriented suspension setup means the CTR will most likely best the GRC in short, tight tracks, as well as longer higher speed tracks...

The only places that the GRC might be a "faster" car is off-road, or on rough surface streets. But the CTR also has electronically adjustable suspension which reviewers all say is amazingly compliant on the street as well if its most comfortable setting....

I think that outright on-track performance for the GRC isn't its focus, as the GRY and GRC are more of rally-inspired machines.

But I'm fine all of this and have already put down deposits for the GRC. I think (hope) the GRC will be a blast to drive all around in many different surfaces and with that 30/70 F/R torque split will be able to do (fun) things that the CTR can't!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can tell, the CTR is going to be straight up better than the GRC in every way except for wet/dirt surfaces. In any other application however, it's faster on track while simultaneously having better ride comfort, and also more rear space.
 

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can tell, the CTR is going to be straight up better than the GRC in every way except for wet/dirt surfaces. In any other application however, it's faster on track while simultaneously having better ride comfort, and also more rear space.
Not everyone wants FWD though. Coming from RWD sports cars the CTR is too big a departure whereas the GRC I have some peace of mind that I can go 30/70 on canyons or 50/50 for track. It brings me back to when I lusted over the evo 8/9 and r32 gtr. Nothing FWD peaks my interest, nothing.

As for ride comfort we have 0 idea whether one will be more comfortable than the other. And without pulling up numbers I'm sure the corolla hatchback is very capable in the legroom/trunk space department. But if you're splitting hairs and saying one is more comfortable or has a few more cubic feet of space than the other, I'm not sure you'd be the core market for a CTR or GRC right?
 

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Not everyone wants FWD though. Coming from RWD sports cars the CTR is too big a departure whereas the GRC I have some peace of mind that I can go 30/70 on canyons or 50/50 for track. It brings me back to when I lusted over the evo 8/9 and r32 gtr. Nothing FWD peaks my interest, nothing.

As for ride comfort we have 0 idea whether or not one will be more comfortable than the other. And without pulling up numbers I'm sure the corolla hatchback is very capable in the legroom/trunk space department. But if you're splitting hairs and saying one is more comfortable or has a few more cubic feet of space than the other, I'm not sure you'd be the core market for a CTR or GRC right?
Yeah when I watch the videos of the CTR FWD circuit lap records there's still a lot of understeer going into the corners. Painful to watch him turn in and then continue to turn the wheel to fight the understeer.

Honda might have been able to dial out most of the torque steer, but understeer is still there and isn't much fun in my opinion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #57 ·
Not everyone wants FWD though. Coming from RWD sports cars the CTR is too big a departure whereas the GRC I have some peace of mind that I can go 30/70 on canyons or 50/50 for track. It brings me back to when I lusted over the evo 8/9 and r32 gtr. Nothing FWD peaks my interest, nothing.

As for ride comfort we have 0 idea whether one will be more comfortable than the other. And without pulling up numbers I'm sure the corolla hatchback is very capable in the legroom/trunk space department. But if you're splitting hairs and saying one is more comfortable or has a few more cubic feet of space than the other, I'm not sure you'd be the core market for a CTR or GRC right?
Yeah when I watch the videos of the CTR FWD circuit lap records there's still a lot of understeer going into the corners. Painful to watch him turn in and then continue to turn the wheel to fight the understeer.

Honda might have been able to dial out most of the torque steer, but understeer is still there and isn't much fun in my opinion.
The CTR overall is a very Honda product. As far as dynamics go, most of my friends who own them, love the feel of them for that reason. You also have that crowd who want whatever marketing they put out. (Fastest fwd car, king of hatches, etc)

Never been a Honda guy but the Type R is fun in its own way
 

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The CTR overall is a very Honda product. As far as dynamics go, most of my friends who own them, love the feel of them for that reason. You also have that crowd who want whatever marketing they put out. (Fastest fwd car, king of hatches, etc)

Never been a Honda guy but the Type R is fun in its own way
Yeah the CTR is very Honda, I have owned two S2000's previously and two other Hondas and I consider myself a Honda fan, and if they were still producing the S2000 it's probably what I'd be driving.

I consider the CTR a backup option if I can't get the GRC in a reasonable amount of time or for a reasonable price. Might as well try it, nearly all the reviews of the CTR are stellar.
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
Yeah the CTR is very Honda, I have owned two S2000's previously and two other Hondas and I consider myself a Honda fan, and if they were still producing the S2000 it's probably what I'd be driving.

I consider the CTR a backup option if I can't get the GRC in a reasonable amount of time or for a reasonable price. Might as well try it, nearly all the reviews of the CTR are stellar.
Yeah the new one is suppose to be better. It’s Honda’s swan song it seems for ICE performance cars. (As far as we know)

release is suppose to be in June.
 

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My only issue with the CTR has always been the styling. No knowledgeable enthusiast would try to argue that it’s anything but an excellent car. That being said, I’m a professional in my early 30s who’s about to get married and have kids, and the styling of the last gen is just too much for me personally. Don’t get me wrong, I think it looks cool and I’ll give them some credit for going all out and not making it an anonymous greyscale blob, but the car looks like it’s fresh off the set of one of the Fast and Furious movies. If I was like 23 and single I’d be like “hell yeah brotherrrr” but I’m not haha…and the fiancée thinks they look ridiculous.

It’s also a car for true stat junkies and folks that are going to track it often. I’m not really either of those things…if a car laps (insert circuit here) .7 seconds quicker than another it doesn’t really matter to me. I care more about feel, although I’m sure the CTR feels great too.

Now that they’ve toned down the styling I’d be more than happy to give the new one a shot, but I don’t think the stars will align in the end. Honda dealerships are pretty infamous and were doing the ADM thing before it was common, so I don’t think anyone will be getting one at close to MSRP, whereas the Toyota dealership I’m near the top of the list for a GRC at is MSRP only. There are also a few things that sell the GRC for me over a CTR, including the AWD system (I currently daily a FWD car and get frustrated with its limits at times), the unique engine/backstory, and I’m sure I’ll get some flak for this…but the iMT technology as well.

I’m not a manual driver by trade (I can drive stick but I still have a lot to learn) and live in the city. The iMT system in the GRC is going to be a godsend in all the stop and go traffic I have to deal with and is going to make the adjustment from a DCT car much easier for me personally. As far as I know, the CTR doesn’t offer anything like it. I feel a lot better about making the transition to a stick car knowing Toyota has made it a little more idiot proof. And honestly…it’s a smart move on their part, because it makes the car more inviting for people that are still learning the ins and outs of a manual.

We’ll see. If the CTR turns out to be a viable alternative and I can’t get a GRC I’ll consider it, but with the way the stars seem to be aligning for me right now and I think the odds of that being the case are low. Like…very low. My chances of winding up with a GRC are halfway decent considering I’m 4th on the list at a local MSRP only dealership in a heavily populated area. I think CTRs are going to be just as hard to get and even harder to get at MSRP, so I don’t see myself just being able to slide into a CTR as a plan B and I don’t feel like calling around a bunch and getting on lists again as a backup plan. My free time is really limited and I’d rather not spend any more of it than I have to interacting with car dealerships…

Plan B is probably going to remain a certified Bimmer for me…or even a used Golf R. There are consistently decent examples around me in the 35-40 range.
 
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