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We agree on point 1 but I have my own thoughts on point 2.

If COVID never happened, I’d agree with point 2. But I personally think that enthusiasts are much more likely to explore other options specifically due to shortages and high demand for cars general. There just simply isn’t enough of them to go around. I’d argue that if one doesn’t get a CTR, they wouldn’t be bummed if they had to ‘settle’ for a GRC of Golf R. Like, you can get a hot hatch. Any hot hatch. Or no hot hatch. That’s just today’s market.


I for one, would prefer to buy the GRC. But I wouldn’t mind ‘settling’ for a GRC or Golf R. They’re all top tier hot hatches. And to many people, having one of the 3 best hot hatches in the USA is good enough even if they don’t get the exact one they want due to shortages.

To add to my point, in the past 2 or so years, there have been countless buyers loyal to Toyota, Honda, and Subaru that switched to Mazda because Mazda had cars to sell. Follow the supply and that’s where the buyers will be. If supply is low all around, people tend to cast a wider net. That’s the smart thing to do.

I’m actually considering putting a deposit on a CTR as well. My idea is that whichever one arrives first is what I will keep. I’d be happy with both to be honest. I just like the GRC because it’s extra special. We’ll likely never see anything like it again.
Good point. I didn’t really account for the supply chain/car market from hell nonsense. With scarce supply and high demand people will naturally have to consider stuff that they didn’t previously, and you definitely wouldn’t be “settling” for any of the 3 you mentioned. It’s a good time to be an enthusiast, even amidst all the market challenges.

I was actually saving for a MK8 Golf R or a BMW 330i before the GRC was unveiled. I currently daily a MK7.5 GTI, which I actually chose over a used Golf R in 2020 because I didn’t think the R was enough of an improvement over the driving experience of the GTI to justify the extra cost.

But then the GRC was revealed and I decided to drop everything and put a deposit down on one. It’s just such an interesting and unique car and manufacturers won’t be producing stuff like it for much longer. My biggest complaint with my GTI other than the run of the mill German car fussiness is it’s just so anonymous and common. Other than the plaid seats there’s really nothing that unique about it and it leaves me wanting more sometimes.

The GRC is also likely going to be a fair bit cheaper than a Golf R (pricing hasn’t been announced yet but I’m aiming for a core with the performance package), both up front and to own long term…not to mention it doesn’t have all the godforsaken haptic controls that the new Golfs do.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
I'll be curious to see how the GRC stacks up on Suzuka. The Type R is only fastest in its class (fwd), so the GRC might still beat it in raw time.
It’s actually faster then the old Porsche 911 GT3 if that’s any indication. Regardless of it being FWD the CTR still competes, and has won out against AWD cars in the past. Lol.

I just want to see a legit head to head
 

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I'll be curious to see how the GRC stacks up on Suzuka. The Type R is only fastest in its class (fwd), so the GRC might still beat it in raw time.
The previous gen CTR is faster around a track compared to the GRY if you would believe the comparison tests on YouTube.

I would not be surprised if the next CTR is faster around a track than the GRC.
 

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Just my guess, the GRC will excel at tight, low speed tracks, while the CTR will excel at high speed tracks.

Based on that lap record video posted by Honda, the suspension on the CTR does seem quite stiff, can even hear the tires slightly squealing when going over the bumpy sections of the track. I did some digging, and found that they are running 265 Michelin PS4S tires, that is a lot of tire for a hot hatchback straight from the factory.

Btw, what's the OE tire for the GR Corolla? The PS4 or the PS4S? Certain parts on Toyota's website say PS4S, but then other parts say PS4, I'm confused.
 

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I'll be curious to see how the GRC stacks up on Suzuka. The Type R is only fastest in its class (fwd), so the GRC might still beat it in raw time.
Don't underestimate the upcoming CTR, the current FK8 already has no problem smoking a bunch of its AWD competitors on the track, the STI, Focus RS and Golf R all got outgunned by the FK8, that upcoming CTR is just going to be even more ridiculous on the track than current one.
 

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Don't underestimate the upcoming CTR, the current FK8 already has no problem smoking a bunch of its AWD competitors on the track, the STI, Focus RS and Golf R all got outgunned by the FK8, that upcoming CTR is just going to be even more ridiculous on the track than current one.
Yeah, I think the CTR will be marketed as as "proper" track monster for the streets, whereas the GRC might be more of a "functional and fast daily". So maybe those looking for a proper track car might want to get the CTR instead?
 

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I put in a $450 refundable deposit on the upcoming Type R at my local Honda dealer. 1st on the list. Pretty sure we’ll hear more from Honda in the coming months. I’ll keep whichever car arrives first. MSRP with dealer installed accessories. Plus they’re planning on loading it up with cosmetics, if Honda is releasing a bunch of those. I’ll see how much they’re planning on selling it when it arrives. They’re confident they can get at least one for MY23.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
I put in a $450 refundable deposit on the upcoming Type R at my local Honda dealer. 1st on the list. Pretty sure we’ll hear more from Honda in the coming months. I’ll keep whichever car arrives first. MSRP with dealer installed accessories. Plus they’re planning on loading it up with cosmetics, if Honda is releasing a bunch of those. I’ll see how much they’re planning on selling it when it arrives they’re confident they can get at least one for MY23.
Honda’s aftermarket support with the Type R is very good too.
 

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Honda’s aftermarket support with the Type R is very good too.
I hope that 1st party aftermarket accessories are delayed or none at all for this generation, as the dealer is planning on installing a bunch of 1st party cosmetics to jack the price up.

Typical Honda dealer. The new CTR will be handled and sold like the old one. I would not be surprised if the dealer racks on markup either. Because they can. Dealers suck.
 

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Also, to add to my Honda dealer deposit experience for the 2023 CTR, they seemed a lot more knowledgeable about the actual process. Even with supply chain issues. Hell, they knew what I was talking about, and they knew the old CTR pretty well. They know for sure they’re going to get at least one for 2022 by the end of the year. They know for sure it’ll be an allocation system rather than build to order. And they’re certain that it’ll be just one trim with little to no options, like the previous gen Type R. Granted, it’s still speculation, but they’re using their previous experience selling the old Type R for the new one. So I find that interesting compared to the Toyota dealer’s, ‘I don’t know and refuse to speculate even a little’ way of handling customers. Maybe the Honda dealer has insider information?
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
Also, to add to my Honda dealer deposit experience for the 2023 CTR, they seemed a lot more knowledgeable about the actual process. Even with supply chain issues. Hell, they knew what I was talking about, and they knew the old CTR pretty well. They know for sure they’re going to get at least one for 2022 by the end of the year. They know for sure it’ll be an allocation system rather than build to order. And they’re certain that it’ll be just one trim with little to no options, like the previous gen Type R. Granted, it’s still speculation, but they’re using their previous experience selling the old Type R for the new one. So I find that interesting compared to the Toyota dealer’s, ‘I don’t know and refuse to speculate even a little’ way of handling customers. Maybe the Honda dealer has insider information?
Honestly, besides the Integra situation, Honda has a good grasp on their product. My friend had the same experience as you placing a deposit on the CTR.

Outside of the whole dealer markup it faces of course (Type R tax)
 

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Honestly, besides the Integra situation, Honda has a good grasp on their product. My friend had the same experience as you placing a deposit on the CTR.

Outside of the whole dealer markup it faces of course (Type R tax)
Yea I think the markup is mostly unavoidable with Honda's special cars. I remember seeing S2000s and 8th gen Civic SIs being marked up back in the day too. I spent 4 hours negotiating with a dealer to help my best friend purchase an 8th gen SI for MSRP in 2009. Then the 8th gen Mugen SI came out and the dealer markup on that was $10k. Someone bought it costing that much. I guess that's why I always avoided Honda and stuck with Mazda for DD cars.

Compared to Toyota dealers, Honda plays hardball when it comes to markups. I called every Honda dealer in my city and each one was doing some form of markup whether it's added dealer installed accessories or just straight markup or a combination of both. I just went with the largest dealer in the city because they will get the allocation.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Yea I think the markup is mostly unavoidable with Honda's special cars. I remember seeing S2000s and 8th gen Civic SIs being marked up back in the day too. I spent 4 hours negotiating with a dealer to help my best friend purchase an 8th gen SI for MSRP in 2009. Then the 8th gen Mugen SI came out and the dealer markup on that was $10k. Someone bought it costing that much. I guess that's why I always avoided Honda and stuck with Mazda for DD cars.

Compared to Toyota dealers, Honda plays hardball when it comes to markups. I called every Honda dealer in my city and each one was doing some form of markup whether it's added dealer installed accessories or just straight markup or a combination of both. I just went with the largest dealer in the city because they will get the allocation.
I mean, I understand why they do it for the CTR, it’s their golden goose. It will definitely be a great car though. Hopefully Honda will reveal it soon.
 

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Hey fellas. Nice to meet you all! I’m on a list for a GRC Circuit (I’m betting about a year or so if I’m lucky). I currently own a ‘18 CTR (bought brand new). The FK8 is an unbelievably great car (both on the road and on track; I’ve done both with mine. It’s totally stock except for 18” Volks (265f 255r). It’s insanely good. I’m hoping that the GRC Circuit can match the driving experience of my CTR. (I plan on keeping both). I’ve got some experience with ‘sporty’ cars - I bought a EVO VIII new back in 2003 and has it a long time. Really great car, but no where near as good a car as the CTR. I currently also own a ‘20 ZL1 1LE 6sp manual (that car is INSANELY fast, but TOTALLY brutal. Awesome for track but not suited to much road driving (I live in the northeast where roads are rough). I’m super curious to see how the GRC will slot into my stable in terms of how it drives and performs..
 

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GRC and CTR are both great performance cars. What a good time to be a car enthusiast. I’m still divided between both machines. They both have great engines. I’m deciding between a few factors. The CTR has a much better quality and bigger interior. There’s no comparison there. The CTR seems to be a better handling machine as well. The GRC however has the GR-Four. That’s a big deal specially with the flexibility of the system. GRC been built in Motomachi plant is also a big factor. My head saids CTR but my gut saids GRC. I’m #1 in one dealer list and #3 in another, not sure about the other 3 dealers (5 total) but I have a decent shot. If I can’t get the GRC then I might try a CTR instead of a Core. We’ll see, it’ll come down to how reasonable dealerships will behave. Honda dealerships have a $10K mark up across the board. Toyota dealerships seem more flexible and reasonable at the moment.
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
GRC and CTR are both great performance cars. What a good time to be a car enthusiast. I’m still divided between both machines. They both have great engines. I’m deciding between a few factors. The CTR has a much better quality and bigger interior. There’s no comparison there. The CTR seems to be a better handling machine as well. The GRC however has the GR-Four. That’s a big deal specially with the flexibility of the system. GRC been built in Motomachi plant is also a big factor. My head saids CTR but my gut saids GRC. I’m #1 in one dealer list and #3 in another, not sure about the other 3 dealers (5 total) but I have a decent shot. If I can’t get the GRC then I might try a CTR instead of a Core. We’ll see, it’ll come down to how reasonable dealerships will behave. Honda dealerships have a $10K mark up across the board. Toyota dealerships seem more flexible and reasonable at the moment.
My friend has a deposit down for MSRP on the CTR, just gotta look.

I agree though, the GRC and CTR are coming out of japan with serious chops.
 

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My friend has a deposit down for MSRP on the CTR, just gotta look.

I agree though, the GRC and CTR are coming out of japan with serious chops.
Ok, thank you. Where did your friend put down that deposit?

I got my information from a local Honda dealership where we purchased a Pilot. Yesterday afternoon I dropped by a different dealership. They weren’t taking any deposits yet nor putting a list together. This morning I went to another dealership by my shop. They were more receptive and confirmed I’m on top of their list for the 2023 CTR. They’re waiting for more details before accepting a $1000 deposit. He did mention a “market adjustment value” might be reflected on the final price. He said $3k-5k adjustment which is much better than what my past Honda dealership told me. I’ll keep looking around.

I now understand why Honda dealerships are marking up all their vehicles. Honda dealerships have empty lots. It looked like they went out of business. They had no inventory with just a few vehicles sprinkled around. I might seen a tumbleweed roll by. A contrasting difference compared to the Toyota dealerships I visited.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
Ok, thank you. Where did your friend put down that deposit?

I got my information from a local Honda dealership where we purchased a Pilot. Yesterday afternoon I dropped by a different dealership. They weren’t taking any deposits yet nor putting a list together. This morning I went to another dealership by my shop. They were more receptive and confirmed I’m on top of their list for the 2023 CTR. They’re waiting for more details before accepting a $1000 deposit. He did mention a “market adjustment value” might be reflected on the final price. He said $3k-5k adjustment which is much better than what my past Honda dealership told me. I’ll keep looking around.

I now understand why Honda dealerships are marking up all their vehicles. Honda dealerships have empty lots. It looked like they went out of business. They had no inventory with just a few vehicles sprinkled around. I might seen a tumbleweed roll by. A contrasting difference compared to the Toyota dealerships I visited.
My friend is in Houston, Texas. He was talking about flying up to the PNW to talk to a dealer by me as well.

Whenever I talk to him again I’ll shoot you a private message of who he went through to get his Si, he got that in Georgia or Florida.
 

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I think the CTR is going to be hard to beat on track, the CTR is a street / track biased machine while press releases indicates that the GRC is tuned for both off-road and street/track use. Off-road tuning is almost counter to track tuning from a suspension standpoint. Off-road tuning generally requires relatively softer suspension tuning with longer stroke and softer sway bars, while track suspension tuning generally requires relatively stiffer tuning and stiffer sway bars and generally doesn't require as long of a stroke.

As a consequence of the softer off-road tuning and longer stroke for off-road performance, high speed side to side transition time is negatively impacted meaning that on shorter tracks with more tight turns, the GRC will be slower to transition than the CTR, which may impact its overall ability to "go quickly" through a series of back to back tight turns.

On tracks that are higher speed with longer sweepers it may not make as much of a difference, but I think the CTR will be able to best the GRC in most track environments, not to mention that CTR is lighter and also has more power (even if the CTR had the same HP and torque at the flywheel, mechanical losses from AWD vs FWD are significant), that coupled with the more track oriented suspension setup means the CTR will most likely best the GRC in short, tight tracks, as well as longer higher speed tracks...

The only places that the GRC might be a "faster" car is off-road, or on rough surface streets. But the CTR also has electronically adjustable suspension which reviewers all say is amazingly compliant on the street as well if its most comfortable setting....

I think that outright on-track performance for the GRC isn't its focus, as the GRY and GRC are more of rally-inspired machines.

But I'm fine all of this and have already put down deposits for the GRC. I think (hope) the GRC will be a blast to drive all around in many different surfaces and with that 30/70 F/R torque split will be able to do (fun) things that the CTR can't!
 
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