Add Yours: 2023 Toyota GR Corolla Reservation Tracking List

And it begins: "EU lawmakers endorse ban on combustion-engine cars in 2035" [Specifically, a ban on selling]

2943 Views 34 Replies 13 Participants Last post by ccrook06, 12 mo ago

luluna

Discussion Starter · 12 mo ago

The European Parliament on Wednesday threw its weight behind a proposed ban on selling new cars with combustion engines in 2035, seeking to step up the fight against climate change through the faster development of electric vehicles.

apnews.com

EU lawmakers endorse ban on combustion-engine cars in 2035

BRUSSELS (AP) — The European Parliament on Wednesday threw its weight behind a proposed ban on selling new cars with combustion engines in 2035, seeking to step up the fight against climate change through the faster development of electric vehicles.

apnews.com

It's unclear to me what this means for ICE Hydrogen, but I would be sad if the branch of development gets nixed.

Personally, I see the ban as a necessity. Regardless of whether or not one agrees with it, it gives sets a deadline for both people and companies to prepare for. 13 years is a long time in the automotive world and a generous heads-up all things considered. It's so far out that it probably doesn't make any impact on current ICE development cycles - in fact, I imagine some companies might feel more at ease, instead of potentially a sudden ban that they don't have time to react to.

Reactions: 5

1 - 20 of 35 Posts

rallycorolla

· #2 · 12 mo ago

I think it's a (somewhat) unpopular opinion among car and motorsports enthusiasts, but I agree. The vast majority of cars being sold today are being used for commuting (especially in North America) and those don't need to be ICE at all.

Toyota has enough development in both electric and hydrogen tech that they should have no problems adjusting.

Unfortunately, hydrogen seems to have trouble with infrastructure and safety (I think; it seems much more dangerous than gasoline but I welcome folks to correct me on this), so we'll probably see most OEMs go for electric.

Off topic but part of me hopes that hydrogen can stick around as a specialized motorsport-centric fuel, like E85 or race fuel. At least that way we can retain the awesome sounds that ICE engines produce.

Reactions: 5

JTBros

· #3 · 12 mo ago

rallycorolla said:
Unfortunately, hydrogen seems to have trouble with infrastructure and safety (I think; it seems much more dangerous than gasoline but I welcome folks to correct me on this), so we'll probably see most OEMs go for electric.

The biggest issue with hydrogen is distribution, which is why it’d be great for trucks and ships.

Reactions: 1

Jeonsa

· #4 · 12 mo ago

rallycorolla said:
I think it's a (somewhat) unpopular opinion among car and motorsports enthusiasts, but I agree. The vast majority of cars being sold today are being used for commuting (especially in North America) and those don't need to be ICE at all.

Toyota has enough development in both electric and hydrogen tech that they should have no problems adjusting.

Unfortunately, hydrogen seems to have trouble with infrastructure and safety (I think; it seems much more dangerous than gasoline but I welcome folks to correct me on this), so we'll probably see most OEMs go for electric.

Off topic but part of me hopes that hydrogen can stick around as a specialized motorsport-centric fuel, like E85 or race fuel. At least that way we can retain the awesome sounds that ICE engines produce.

Synthetic fuels have a shot just because of infrastructure but overall it’s going to be weird

luluna

Discussion Starter · #5 · 12 mo ago

Jeonsa said:
Synthetic fuels have a shot just because of infrastructure but overall it’s going to be weird

Unfortunately, if it passes as it is, there are no exceptions to synthetic fuels - probably because the law would then be meaningless since in theory, any engine can burn synthetic fuels.

But Germany’s auto industry lobby group VDA criticized the vote, saying it ignored the lack of charging infrastructure in Europe. The group also said the vote was “a decision against innovation and technology” a reference to demands from the industry that synthetic fuels be exempt from the ban, which European lawmakers rejected.

Reactions: 2

underscore

· #6 · 12 mo ago

I'm still curious where we're going to get enough electricity for all of these EVs. At least around here, everyone refuses to let any new power generation of any kind be built.

Reactions: 5

ryno9100

· #7 · 12 mo ago

underscore said:
I'm still curious where we're going to get enough electricity for all of these EVs. At least around here, everyone refuses to let any new power generation of any kind be built.

This is my biggest concern. I'm not sure what power infrastructures in the EU look like, but here in the states, they don't look anywhere near ready for mass EV adoption. That's why I'm in so hard on ICE Hydrogen and synthetic fuels. They're the clean alternative that allows me to still have fun and allows people who can't afford a new EV to continue going to work.

Reactions: 3

TurboGT

· #8 · 12 mo ago

luluna said:
. 13 years is a long time in the automotive world and a generous heads-up all things considered.

It's far from enough time to beef up the power grids though. That will take decades.

Reactions: 2

luluna

Discussion Starter · #9 · 12 mo ago

I don't think the vast majority of the United States have any power grid issues outside record breaking heatwaves (which are sadly becoming more frequent) when everyone is maxing out their AC. Many utility providers also discount/incentivize night time charging (I believe most, if not all modern EVs can have a charging schedule set), where demands are low.

At the very least, I don't see any past events to suggest that the power grid is failing to keep up with the demand specifically due to EVs.

I think the biggest current issue is really the reliability of the charging stations. People plan road trips expecting various stations to be functional. It sounds like it's a pretty common occurrence at the moment for charging stations to glitch out. I sort of get it; pumping gas is literally just moving fluid from a big tank in the ground to a smaller tank above via a hose. For EVs, there are different adapters...each car charges at different rates...the battery management system and the charger needs to constantly renegotiate the rate due to environmental changes...It is a lot more complicated and so many elements can fail. I think my entire life of driving, I've only ever encountered three gas stations that were closed unexpectedly.

On the flip side, you only need a charging station if you go on road trips. Realistically, one can charge most of their commuting usage via a level 1 or 2 charger at home. In which case, you've gained the benefit of never needing to go to a gas station, or worry about your gas expiring if you don't drive enough.

See less See more

Reactions: 3

ccrook06

· #10 · 12 mo ago

Not bad. I agree I was sure the EU would be more aggressive with this, most European automakers have already said their ICE models are at the end of their lives. Pretty sure the US is shooting for 2035 as well.

Reactions: 1

ryno9100

· #11 · 12 mo ago

luluna said:
I think the biggest current issue is really the reliability of the charging stations. People plan road trips expecting various stations to be functional. It sounds like it's a pretty common occurrence at the moment for charging stations to glitch out. I sort of get it; pumping gas is literally just moving fluid from a big tank in the ground to a smaller tank above via a hose. For EVs, there are different adapters...each car charges at different rates...the battery management system and the charger needs to constantly renegotiate the rate due to environmental changes...It is a lot more complicated and so many elements can fail. I think my entire life of driving, I've only ever encountered three gas stations that were closed unexpectedly.

On this note in particular, EVs really need to band together to make a universal charger... Imagine if every car company had a different hole you put gas in, and I couldn't fill my Ford up at a Toyota gas station because my hole is round and theirs is triangular. That's what EVs are doing.

Also, yeah. Reliability on charging stations is beyond abysmal. If I got an EV, I would keep an ICE for long road trips just so I wouldn't have to worry about it. I also hate road trips and want them over as fast as possible, so stopping for an hour to charge my car is a dealbreaker for me.

Reactions: 3

Wynorrific

· #12 · 12 mo ago

ryno9100 said:
On this note in particular, EVs really need to band together to make a universal charger... Imagine if every car company had a different hole you put gas in, and I couldn't fill my Ford up at a Toyota gas station because my hole is round and theirs is triangular. That's what EVs are doing.

Also, yeah. Reliability on charging stations is beyond abysmal. If I got an EV, I would keep an ICE for long road trips just so I wouldn't have to worry about it. I also hate road trips and want them over as fast as possible, so stopping for an hour to charge my car is a dealbreaker for me.

I thought Tesla was the only one with a specific charger? And yeah, the long trips are probably why EV's are more accepted and successful overseas. We see 3-5 hours as a weekend trip or even a day trip and they see that as a whole week vacation

Reactions: 1

ccrook06

· #13 · 12 mo ago

Wynorrific said:
I thought Tesla was the only one with a specific charger? And yeah, the long trips are probably why EV's are more accepted and successful overseas. We see 3-5 hours as a weekend trip or even a day trip and they see that as a whole week vacation

And they have a stellar public transit system. I'd love to only own performance cars and ditch commuters, but the US isn't built that way lol.

Reactions: 2

underscore

· #14 · 12 mo ago

3-5 hours is easily a day trip, my family used to do 8 hours for weekend trips lol. Here that only moves you half a province though, depending where you start in Europe you could be several countries over.

luluna said:
I don't think the vast majority of the United States have any power grid issues outside record breaking heatwaves (which are sadly becoming more frequent) when everyone is maxing out their AC. Many utility providers also discount/incentivize night time charging (I believe most, if not all modern EVs can have a charging schedule set), where demands are low.

Doesn't LA have rolling blackouts in the summer already? The power company here already stated several years back that they cannot support full on EV adoption. I think they said something like 30-40% of cars being EVs would be the max they could handle. On top of that we have cities trying to ban natural gas entirely and wanting all heating to be electric.

Reactions: 1

Wynorrific

· #15 · 12 mo ago

ccrook06 said:
And they have a stellar public transit system. I'd love to only own performance cars and ditch commuters, but the US isn't built that way lol.

Not only that, a lot of people bike everywhere as well which is not really something people do here either

Reactions: 1

Pie

· #16 · 12 mo ago

ryno9100 said:
On this note in particular, EVs really need to band together to make a universal charger... Imagine if every car company had a different hole you put gas in, and I couldn't fill my Ford up at a Toyota gas station because my hole is round and theirs is triangular. That's what EVs are doing.

Also, yeah. Reliability on charging stations is beyond abysmal. If I got an EV, I would keep an ICE for long road trips just so I wouldn't have to worry about it. I also hate road trips and want them over as fast as possible, so stopping for an hour to charge my car is a dealbreaker for me.

There definitely needs to be a universal standard on chargers like EU.

I kept my Mazda3 for a year after getting my first Tesla thinking the same thing. I thought I would need it for long road trips because of charge time and range. Being in California, I found out I never actually had to worry. Probably different experience in other areas and non Teslas. There are people who do a lot of long distance road trips, but majority really don't and only think they do. When I take road trips, the car charges faster than I could grab lunch or go to the bathroom. You're typically ready to go after 15-20mins.

Imho the adoption will be hard on people who dont have charging at their home/apartment. That's going to create a massive problem if that isn't addressed first. I see gas cars staying for enthusiasts and other unique uses where EV doesn't make sense.

Reactions: 2

luluna

Discussion Starter · #17 · 12 mo ago

Wynorrific said:
I thought Tesla was the only one with a specific charger? And yeah, the long trips are probably why EV's are more accepted and successful overseas. We see 3-5 hours as a weekend trip or even a day trip and they see that as a whole week vacation

With CHAdeMO being effectively discontinued, I think that's right (for NA anyways).

We have an insane disparity in driving culture depending on the state, lol. I live in a smaller state. I had a coworker from Texas tell me to meet a client "down the street". It was 100 miles away - literally the other side of the state.

Reactions: 1

rallycorolla

· #18 · 12 mo ago

ccrook06 said:
And they have a stellar public transit system. I'd love to only own performance cars and ditch commuters, but the US isn't built that way lol.

I think this is the biggest thing. If more places in the US had better public transit coughcoughLAcoughgoughthanksGMcoughcough, there would be far fewer cars on the road and less urgency for electrification. But no, we'll have our 6 lane highways and deadly stroads and sprawling suburbs...

in other news please vote for me in the Anti-Car Car Club elections, kthx

OK I'll stop 😅

Reactions: 3

Ironworker842

· #19 · 12 mo ago

It takes on average about 10 years for a big power plant to go from shovels in ground to producing power. That's a big hydro dam, nuclear plant, etc. So there will have to be a massive investment into the grid that has to start relatively soon. Also ban on new only. I think ICE cars will be around for a long time yet, but the hobby will definitely turn into a somewhat of a rich man's game, not that it already isn't lol. But like the housing market for young ppl, if you havnt got in when prices were cheap....
Hope I'm wrong

Reactions: 3

luluna

Discussion Starter · #20 · 12 mo ago

Ironworker842 said:
Also ban on new only. I think ICE cars will be around for a long time yet, but the hobby will definitely turn into a somewhat of a rich man's game, not that it already isn't lol. But like the housing market for young ppl, if you havnt got in when prices were cheap....
Hope I'm wrong

Definitely! I wonder how the market is going to evolve. Will gas prices get so ridiculous that no one wants ICE cars anymore? Or will gas prices plummet (at least for a moment) as everyone switches to EV and people are clamoring for used car parts?

Alternatively - a more amusing thought is that while manufacturers can't sell you a new car...would it be legal to sell new parts? If it's legal to sell new ICE parts, they could in theory even offer DIY conversion kits to convert an EV to ICE, lol. That would be an interesting development, lol.

Just a fun thought exercise, but I think the reality is really going to be far more straightforward - in 13 years, ICE cars will simply be financially unfeasible except for the well-to-do. I imagine in like 8 years, as Toyota throws themselves fully into EV and as society starts accepting EV more, if we're still around, we're going to be like...

"OMG, THE NEW CELICA GEV-FOUR IS THE PINACLE OF TOYOTA PERFOMANCE AND RELIABILITY...ugh, why won't they accept custom orders..."

See less See more

Reactions: 2

1 - 20 of 35 Posts

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.